This AMA has a soundtrack. Sarah and I were chatting a bit beforehand and she mentioned this "chill, lo-fi vibes with a moon emoji playlist" that she will zen out to while working. So, I had to find it and share. Put your headphones on and join us for a fascinating conversation with Sarah Spiers, Producer at Studio Drydock and DEI advocate.
👋 Sarah! Thank you so much for joining us today! You mentioned submitting for GDC talks? For what we hope to be SF 2021? Do you mind if I ask about the topics?
⛵ There are 3 talks. I submitted one talk, which I've given before, but I'm trying to change it a little bit. It's about how we can build and improve studio culture using mindfulness and other skills that can be really useful for studio morale and communication. The other two are for the IGA foundation. One is for a research project we're doing. You will find out more about that in January.
The other one is about building pipelines to find diverse talent and ways that studios can grow and retain that talent. We were going to partner with a couple of other organizations that have done a good job of that. I want to give a special shout out to Iron Galaxy. They have a professional development program that their full-time employees get to take part in. I haven't heard of this often in other places.
So, you know, chatting with different companies to see what they're doing in that space. If any other big or small companies or individuals want to think about how to improve diversity in their studio, they'll have some best practices. We'll see if those get accepted.
😍 Well, that sounds wonderful. I would love to have those resources to share with our studios, many that are just starting out.
For example, just saying you want to be more diverse in your job descriptions doesn't suddenly make you more diverse. It actually takes a lot more work. You have to try harder to hire underrepresented groups. An unwillingness to put in that extra work is one reason they're underrepresented.
Before we get started I want to say that I am super excited to speak with you. I'm looking for more ways we can work with studios to influence and improve diversity, equity, and inclusion in indie games. I know you put a lot of work into DEI yourself, so thank you for your efforts.
⛵ Well, thank you. Yeah, it's tough and it takes a lot of people and I'm still learning, too.
I mean, speaking as someone who is both marginalized and privileged, it's complicated. We're always learning and we make mistakes. As long as we're willing to make amends and keep growing, then we can do better.
Indies in particular have a great opportunity to define what diverse, equitable, and inclusive studios look like.
We have less bureaucracy than most other places. So, I hope that indies can be a model for bigger orgs.
😃 I do too. And I have grand ambitions for how we can influence the industry together.
If indies can become a shining example and the place people want to work in, we can see a shift in talent towards indies. The bigger studios would then have to adjust to remain competitive and retain their talent.
A long-term way to influence change for sure, but I am pretty excited for what we can do together.
Well, I've already monopolized so much of your time. Let's turn this over to the group and field some questions.
🤔 What was your experience with the hiring process at Studio Drydock? Both as an applicant and behind the scenes now that you're involved in hiring for the studio?
⛵ Sure. I want to preface this by saying that my experience with Drydock may not be typical. From my understanding, Drydock had been looking for producers for a while. They were towards the end of their search, which is why my turnaround was so quick.
I had been seeing a career coach and I ran my cover letter by her. I revamped my resume and I applied to Drydock and I think I heard from them within the week. They asked me to schedule an interview with them. They also had me sign an NDA and play a version of their game.
I did that and had an interview with them. I think it was actually a Sunday night for me, cause they're in Australia and I'm in Wisconsin. It went well. And then a couple hours later, I received an offer. Which was shocking and I'm very flattered.
I remember I was in the middle of a game of Among Us with friends. I had to stop playing because I was too excited and I couldn't be a proper imposter.
That was my process. And again, I want to say it's probably not super typical. For people who are looking at more AAA, that's not how it goes. For indie, it's a little more common, but it was pretty quick.
I think had they been earlier in their search, maybe it wouldn't have been so quick. But it was a really positive experience. I interviewed with Amanda and Alex. I felt like they cared not just about hiring a great person, but they cared about me as an individual. They valued me and my insights.
I felt like we had really great conversations, not just about how to be a good producer, but also how to be a good team lead. We talked about how do we incorporate diversity, equity, and inclusion into our practices. And what I thought about different topics. It was a great experience.
I knew just from talking with them that I would love to work with them. A lot of studios don't necessarily want to have these conversations at interviews. Or, maybe they're not prepared to talk about it. But they were. Overall, it was really positive.
The second part of what it's like on the inside... I'm definitely the person to ask because I am taking the lead on hiring for all our roles. And what that means is that I'm everyone's first step in the pipeline.
When you apply to Studio Drydock, I'm actually seeing everything and parsing through the applications. I'm not the primary decision maker, but I do sort through and look at and see who has a skill set that might be a good fit for the different jobs that we have.
We really do go through every single application by hand. We look at people's values. We look at their experience. We look at what they talk about what they want to do in the industry. We take that into account as well.
Every single role has their own process for how we hire. But it's very intentional and we try to remove as much bias as possible. QA in particular, I can talk a little bit about. I know that there might be folks in here who have applied, so I'll try to keep it vague, but also specific enough.
When we were hiring for QA, we knew that we were going to get a lot of people applying. [.c-highlight]We wanted to remove as much bias as possible. So, I'd been looking into different kinds of rubrics we could use. Also, we looked into anonymizing applications.[.c-highlight] And it's really difficult, but also interesting because I feel like we got a lot of applicants who were really vulnerable about who they are. Which, I think, speaks volumes to how we present ourselves as a company.
I do want to preface this by saying I'm not a DEI expert by any means, and I'm still learning myself too.
🤔 You mentioned that you have a career coach, which, sounds awesome. Are they looking for new mentees? Would you be willing to share contact information? Is this something that you pay for?
⛵ I work with Jean Leggett. I actually met her through a friend of mine, but she also was one of our recipients in the IGDA foundation. She was a Next Gen Leader.
She does both paid and pro bono services. I paid. My personal philosophy is if I can afford to, I pay so others who can't can receive those pro bono services. She's fantastic. She'll actually post about open slots for pro bono services, so totally follow her and keep an eye on her. But yeah, she's always open for work. You can do one-offs like what I did. You can do some longer-term stuff as well.
What I did was I scheduled some time with her to sit down and look at my resume. One of the problems that I had is that I have experience working in games, but no one seemed to agree. I couldn't get very many interviews.
I had to use connections, which is totally valid and a lot of people do, but I was frustrated because I thought that I did bring a lot to the table. Jean was able to help me figure out how to present myself in a way that reflected the experience I had. She has a very unique process for helping you figure it out.
It's very narrative-based and values-based. After working with her, I immediately saw results. My job search this time around was a lot easier than the first time. Granted, once you've had a job in the industry, it's typically a little easier to get other jobs, but it was just night and day.
So, if anyone is looking to talk with someone who can help you revamp everything, Jean is fantastic.
[.c-insight]💡 Editor's Note: I would also +1 investing in yourself. Especially early in your career where the returns will compound over decades. For example, if a professional resume writer helps you get a job a week faster, that will already more than pay for itself. And, you may even get a better offer. And then, you get to add onto and use that same resume over and over again.[.c-insight]
🤔 Going back to your process for reviewing applications, can you go into the step by step details on what that looks like for you?
⛵ It kind of depends on which job we're trying to fill. All of them are unique. So they have their own unique process. So let's actually start before we review. Let's start about how we write the job description.
Drydock has a very specific way that they've written job descriptions in the past. Actually, through one of the posts that you made here on Work With Indies from Clever Endeavor, we were able to write a new kind of job listing, which was that QA tester role. Yeah, it all circles back.
The QA tester job description was very intentional because we wanted everyone to know that you do not need experience in the industry for this job. This particular role is meant to be entry-level. It's meant to be a stepping stone. You don't have to want to continue to be in QA afterwards.
This is a way for us to bring on someone who really wants to work in games and give them that experience and that mentorship. So the way that we wrote everything was very deliberate. And the way that we built the hiring pipeline was also deliberate because we wanted it to be as fair as possible. Also, at the same time, it had to help us get through hundreds of applications.
So when we opened the job listing, I set aside an hour or two every single day to go through every single application. So that includes reading through the cover letters, looking at their resumes.
If they provided supplementary material, I'll take a look at that too. When we're hiring for this QA tester, [.c-highlight]we aren't just hiring someone who can test a game, we're hiring a person with hopes and dreams. And so we want to make sure that they'll thrive in the studio and benefit from what we have to offer.[.c-highlight]
I've definitely worked at places where it's not a really great fit and it isn't a good feeling. So we want to make sure that this person is going to feel welcome and like their goals are being supported.
So I'll sit there every day just to look through resumes applications and flag interest. Maybe someone who has an interesting background. Or maybe someone who made a really great point. And then when it comes to actually evaluating we have a rubric that we use to help eliminate bias.
It is specifically designed to highlight people that don't have experience because it's our primary target for that role. Then after that, we score up tallies and move people onto our next phase, which is a test. And that's all completely anonymized.
We will spend a lot of time on that. Afterwards, we have interviews. One of them is with me so people can get a sense of if they would like to work with me because I'm going to be the primary person they work with. And if they don't like me, they might not like this job. Then the final interview is with our engineer, because that's the other person that they're going to work with. But I'll be there to be their champion and trying to help create a comfortable environment for them.
That's the process. It's very deliberate and we try to be as equitable as possible. And like I said, it's not perfect. [.c-highlight]One of the things we're planning to do is have a post-mortem after this process and talk to whoever's hired about their experience so the next time we're hiring someone, we can do an even better job.[.c-highlight]
🤔 So you're a producer and you've got a full-time job. And you're talking about this is taking upwards of two hours per day. How many applicants are you reviewing?
⛵ It depends on the role, but the QA role got about 450.
😵💫 Oh my goodness.
⛵ Yeah. So that's why I haven't been active on Twitter recently. :)
I don't mind at all because I think every single one of these applicants deserves some time. It's hard. I've applied to places and then never heard back. And that's so discouraging.
We don't believe in doing that. If you don't get an email back from us, it's because our email system broke. We try and respond to every single person. [.c-highlight]They're human and they have feelings and we want them to feel valued. And even if we don't wind up working with them, they're still important.[.c-highlight]
So yeah, it's time-consuming. To me, it's worth it.
⛵ It's very time-consuming. You could empathize with why other studios skip some of these steps. I mean, over 400 applications is a lot of work! And being open and encouraging to junior and entry-level applicants, you see a lot more applications.
That's why some other studios might insert qualifications or requirements to limit applications. They just don't have the capacity to manage that kind of volume. Or, they haven't figured out some of the tricks that you have that allow you to optimize and make that a more efficient process.
I know we all get frustrated when we see those requirements and then feel like we can't apply. It's also a signal that, as you were saying earlier, it might not be a good fit. It might not be welcoming to you as a junior employee.
They might not be the studio that is going to provide you the support and resources to grow and achieve your goals. And if they're going to give that signal out, then, maybe people like you and I can try to encourage that studio to be more open. But also, maybe they're not the right studios to actually develop junior employees.
As a result, maybe we should then look for other opportunities at studios like Drydock that are telling us that they are going to invest in and support us.
I understand, it's hard work. I don't want to sound too down on studios who aren't catering to junior employees. It is just about all of us being honest with ourselves. Both job seekers and job creators.
⛵ It's hard. I think this is a conversation for a different day, but the way that a lot of us build our studios does not create an environment where entry-level or junior developers can thrive. And that's problematic.
I feel like we all want to open studios and we all want the best of the best, but there's only so much talent. And there are so many amazing people who would do really well in games. We just need to give them that shot.
We just don't. The way we're building studios right now is not helpful for that. And like I said, larger conversation for a different day. It can't be solved with one conversation, but it's tough.
[.c-highlight]I appreciate studios that recognize that they don't have the bandwidth to train people. Because that's also harmful, especially for marginalized folks. To be put in a situation where they take a chance on you, but then not give you any support. That's so, so hurtful and horrible for everyone involved.[.c-highlight]
So I do respect folks that realize that they aren't able to do that right now.
😃 Yeah. Sarah, you are fantastic. I might have to submit my app for this QA position. I so want to be able to work with you every day.
🤔 When you were applying to jobs, what was your stance on relocation? Were you trying to find remote jobs, jobs in your area, or were you willing to relocate?
⛵ Great question. I actually did not want to relocate. Here is my thought process.
So one, and just to be completely transparent, I have a lot of support networks here in Madison and I was going through my own mental health journey. I didn't want to give that up in order to travel somewhere new. I really believe in investing in myself. Also, relocation is not accessible for a lot of folks.
I also know money is tough to come by sometimes, especially in this industry. So I wanted to stay in Madison where rent was relatively inexpensive and I could save up some money that way. Then, if I do need to relocate to another job and they don't provide support, I'd have the funds. Or if I got laid off, I'd have some funds saved up. It was a pretty strategic decision.
I also think in terms job searching and COVID, I had no interest in relocating during all of this. I'm not even going to be in the studio anyway. And I think that more and more studios are going to be open to remote work.
It might take some longer than others to admit it, but some people are fully capable of working from home or working from a non-office space. It doesn't always have to be from home.
Sometimes, and this is tough so don't use this as the rule, but in some situations, you can apply to studios who say "This is temporarily remote. We're hoping to bring everyone back in the office." and apply for that position. After you've worked in that job for a while, you can petition to work remotely, if you've done really, really well. If you've thrived and exceeded expectations, and then they want you to come into the office, you can say, "Look, to be honest, I feel like I do my best work when I'm home. I'd prefer to stay here if possible." See if you can negotiate it from there.
Not every studio is going to be okay without, of course, but others might be, especially if you're doing really, really well. Another thing that you can do is try to negotiate a relocation package. Especially if the salary is not necessarily what you'd like.
Negotiation is a skill in itself. One I have not yet mastered. Drydock is a hundred percent remote though. So that was really great. Also, I don't think Australia wants any Americans right now.
🤔 Is it helpful to email the studio before applying and opening a conversation? Or would these get overlooked and potentially hurt in hiring?
⛵ I'm going to speak from the indie perspective because I've mostly worked in indie settings.
I don't think it will hurt. If you genuinely contact someone, not with the intent of trying to get a job, but just to talk to them about the studio environment, I don't think that can hurt. That's kind of what I do. I love to connect with people. Especially those who are at studios.
I don't have very many producer friends. I'd love to get more producer friends and learn what they're doing. If you're really interested in a studio, let's say Drydock, and you emailed me and I see it, I'm going to respond and I'm going to love to chat with you.
I think it's smart to do research. So you don't put yourself in a bad situation and figure out if you want to work there.
Or maybe I like this particular person and I'm just going to kind of follow their career. Then maybe they'll go some work someplace I want to work and we can touch base again. [.c-highlight]At the end of the day, networking is really making friends and should be viewed as making friends.[.c-highlight]
But, it doesn't hurt. And if it does hurt, then I don't know. I feel like that studio's values are maybe not aligned with what you want. Why not just say, "Hey, do you have time for like a 20 minute chat? I'd love to learn more about production at your studio." I think that's totally fine.
[.c-insight]💡 Editor's Note: If you're trying to identify folks to reach out to, people that are putting themselves out there are going to be more responsive. If you see someone giving talks, engaging and interacting with people on Twitter, providing resources and insights, these are people that want to help.
They're sending you a signal that they're going to be more open to conversations than, for example, the CEO / Lead Programmer / Sound Designer that is 100% focused on shipping their game.[.c-insight]
⛵ Absolutely. That reminds me another pro strategy for this. Look at people who are relatively close to you in terms of length of industry tenure.
What I mean by that is if you're new to the industry and you want to talk with someone, you are more likely to get helpful and relevant advice from people who've been in the industry a couple of years longer than you than someone who got into the games industry in the eighties. Because their experience is going to be so different than yours.
Whereas, someone who got into the industry two years before you is going to understand what you're going through. They may have helpful resources for you and be excited to talk to you because they'll see a little bit of themselves in you. That's what I found.
I remember asking someone how they got in the games industry once. And they said, "I was working at GameStop and then Ken Levine walked in and we just hit it off."
That's not how that works. [.c-highlight]I sat in a coffee shop outside Proletariat for ages and didn't get a job.[.c-highlight] What winds up happening is I go and beg someone for an internship.
🤔 When companies are looking for junior candidates, what are the main skills they expect of them?
⛵ Oh boy. Okay. So, speaking from my experience... [.c-highlight]When I'm looking for junior candidates, I love to see someone who has really tried. What I mean by that is they've done the research, they've tried making some small games, they've participated in a game jam. Maybe they've written a research paper and they're really proud of it. Maybe they're making stuff on their own.[.c-highlight]
That kind of thing shows me that even though you don't necessarily have the job that you're really interested in games. You're thinking about the industry. You're thinking about your craft and you're willing to learn. [.c-highlight]I especially love it when people break down their process in their portfolios.[.c-highlight]
I've seen 3d modelers talking about how they concept an idea. Then they built the model. (And this is where you realize I don't know very much about 3d.) But then they textured it and painted. And then show what it looks like now. They walk me through. I love that because it helps us see into your thought process. Sometimes we'll look at what you've written and we think, "Oh, that's how I do it too." That helps us see you on our team.
I do want to acknowledge that it can be difficult for people who are working lots of non-game related jobs to do this. That is one of the ways the games industry is unfair. So I would encourage people who are in that situation to do what they can to make little, tiny things.
Bitsy is a great engine to make tiny stuff. You can make something in a day. I'm super biased, but I love Twine. And I love seeing people use Twine. You can be really creative with it. Just taking a little bit of time and build your narrative in your cover letter. Say "I do X, Y, and Z, but I've been trying to get into games and I'm doing these things." That can be helpful.
Other stuff that we love to see is that you're participating in your community, if you can. This is not make or break, but I love seeing candidates who love production and volunteer their skills by helping to organize and meet up.
Not saying everyone needs to go out and organize a meetup. It's just really nice to see people who are invested in their community. One of my values is to try and help others. And so when I see people who also are interested in that, it makes me want to talk to them and see what they're doing.
Every studio is a little different, but I try and take everyone's full narrative and use that to inform my thoughts about them as a candidate. I know everyone comes from a different background. And so, for instance, comparing someone who can take a lot of unpaid internships versus someone who can't isn't fair.
So I try to be cognizant of that. All of these little details, they do add up. When you're looking through and trying to process 400 applications, you are looking for things that set some candidates apart from others.
[.c-highlight]The portfolio that lists the projects is nice. But then the extra is the portfolio that lists the projects and then goes into detail about, their participation, their role, their process in developing those projects.[.c-highlight]
🤔 How do you recommend tailoring a portfolio for a job position when you have a very small portfolio? Is there anything else that comes to mind other than what you've already shared?
⛵ This is where are we all have to be honest with ourselves. One of the things that I've seen a lot of, and no shame because I've definitely done this too, is when the style and work in your portfolio does not match what the company is trying to accomplish.
For example, at Drydock, if you're applying and your portfolio is entirely 3d models of guns. That's probably not a great fit for a studio that's making cozy non-violent games.
So my first question would be, "Is the studio making the kinds of things that you're interested in making now?" When it comes to tailoring your portfolio, what I would recommend doing is finding the studios that you are interested in. Then, finding an artist at that studio and looking at their portfolio. See what they included in their portfolio because they got hired.
You can see what is in your portfolio that is in line with theirs. Then maybe investing some time to make one more piece that's along those lines. I'm obviously not copying everything they have. So if they have a house, a boat, and piece of pizza, don't make it where yours is a house, a boat, and a piece of pizza. But an architectural thing, a prop thing, and a food thing, you can do something like that.
This is probably not the most perfect advice. I will fully admit that my brain is very producery. I'm not an artist. My only art story is that I crashed the render at my college. And that's when I knew I would not be an artist.
I would recommend that you really understand what you want to do as an artist or an engineer or designer. Understand what kind of games you want to work on. What kind of art style and what kind of technical stuff you're interested in. Then finding related portfolios and seeing how you can get yours to kind of match.
[.c-insight]💡 That's so good. I haven't thought of this before. Whether it's a portfolio or somebody's LinkedIn, find the people that already work there. They got the job. Look at their portfolio, their personal websites, their LinkedIn, and that will give you a good idea of what the bar is. At minimum, their format and content is not turning that studio off. But it's more likely to be attracting them. That's such a great insight.[.c-insight]
⛵ Yeah. I got this advice from some art friends of mine. So credit to them. Then, when you're customizing, you're not copying. You do want to be authentic.
[.c-highlight]If it's not art that you actually love creating, then you probably shouldn't produce it. You're going to trick a studio into hiring you. Then, lucky you, you get a job where you're actually not going to be doing something that you want.[.c-highlight] You gotta be authentic and honest with yourself as well.
🤔 So would you say in-progress or unfinished work included in a portfolio is helpful or hurtful in getting hired for an entry level position?
⛵ Ooh, this is good. The default answer that most people will give is "finished is best". But if you provide some commentary about where you are at with this project, what you are doing, that can be really interesting.
There's actually someone, Jay, I knew through an internship. They did some art and made a portfolio where they showed in-progress work for their shaders.
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⛵ They were dabbling in VFX and created a blog or a part of their portfolio where they talked about this in-progress work over time.
Now they do shooters for Spiderman at Insomniac.
If you're working on something, providing context about where you are and why you've made those decisions is incredibly helpful.
I love going back and looking at this person's portfolio or that blog, and seeing how this project evolved and how their skills evolved.
Personally, I love seeing in-progress stuff. It's fascinating to understand how people think. Especially since I'm a producer and I work with people that think differently. Finding other perspectives is really awesome.
And again, it helps us figure out how you might fit on our team or ways that we can support you. Software can be taught. But if we can see through your process that you're on the same wavelength as us, we're going to love that.
If you can, do some finished and in-progress stuff too. Make sure it's clearly labeled that it's a work-in-progress. That's the one caveat I have because sometimes we'll be like, "This doesn't look finished." So make sure there's a note there.
🤔 Going back the 400 plus QA applications you're received, that's a lot of work to go through. I imagine you have some systems or tricks to try to optimize. Do you have a process to help you quickly identify what applications you're going to move forward with?
Are there any red flags or warning signs or things that you find on applications that might quickly disqualify?
⛵ Oh, the tough questions. Okay. So, I mentioned this earlier, but one of the things that I do is I look to see if what we're making is in line with their goals.
This is not because I'm trying to discriminate against certain video game tastes. [.c-highlight]At the end of the day, we want that person to be happy and we want them to stay. Hiring is a very, very expensive and time-consuming process.[.c-highlight]
[.c-highlight]So, from a business standpoint, the less we have to go through hiring cycles the better. From a personal perspective, I want our new hires to thrive. I want them to succeed.[.c-highlight] So when I'm looking through applications and they're talking about things that they love and it is so different from the studio... Diverse ideas are important. But if they seem they wouldn't be happy working with us, then I'm probably going to pass.
I feel bad here, but I'm picking one. Everyone likes first-person shooters. I like first-person shooters. But if you come into a studio that's making cozy games and you're talking about how you love the mechanics of first-person shooters, that's going to be tough for me to move forward.
Now, if you talk about some of the more compassionate, cozy perspectives of shooters, then, okay. You've got me hooked. So, really looking at their values and making sure that they align with ours.
Trying to think of red flags... Something that I like to tell junior applicants is to be mindful of who might be reading your applications.
I've read cover letters that are a little condescending. I wish I could pinpoint what it is exactly, but tone checking is hard. I feel bad because I don't want to come across as tone policing, but being compassionate and approaching a job from a perspective of curiosity and excitement, wanting to put your best foot forward, is really helpful.
[.c-highlight]Telling me how many games you have and how long you've been playing them doesn't tell me how strong of a developer you may be.[.c-highlight] I hate to say this because I love games, but I've had applications where their main selling point is "I love games. I play games constantly. I have like a thousand games in my library."
That's great, but that doesn't tell me about you and what you want to do. I don't think it necessarily disqualifies you, but I want to know about your goals and your values. For example, if you love diversity, equity, and inclusion and you're applying for a studio that is focused on that, I want to hear about that.
Also, stay positive. I've gotten some negative cover letters and those are sad to read. I don't know how to deal with those. Being excited and curious and having confidence in yourself is the way to go.
Other red flags... Do not name drop people in the studio unless you really know them. Please, please, please. Because I will definitely ask them. It's one thing to say you heard a talk by someone. It's another thing to say you did a thing with this person.
We don't see a lot of red flags at Drydock. Everyone who's applied so far has been honest and genuine, which is great. Those are just some quick ideas, because honestly, we can tell when you're lying in your cover letters.
🤨 Yeah, that stuff gets found out. Especially in the indie community, which is still a fairly small community and people tend to know each other.
⛵ Right. We're all connected.
If you know of someone at the studio, but you're not friends with them, it's fine to say you know they are at the studio and you admire their work. That you feel like you share their values. It becomes a problem when you insinuate that you have a closer friendship with them than you do.
If you ran into somebody at GDC and you had a great conversation, they may not remember you. It's okay to say that you really enjoyed your conversation with that person.
🤔 Were you still working with Filament when you applied for the Studio Drydock role?
⛵ I was. Some of my best friends are at Filament. This is something that everyone has to go through and it was my time. You sit there and you think "I love the people at the studio. I love the projects I work on, but I'm not growing in the way I want."
That motivated me to make a change. I felt like I needed new challenges. It wasn't that Filament couldn't give those challenges to me, but I think I was a bit impatient and I wanted something different. Filament was also one of the bigger studios I've worked at and I missed that indie life. Also, I wanted to go back into narrative games again. So I saw the Drydock opening here and applied. And dang, I got it! I thought it wouldn't hurt to try. I'm glad I did.
🤔 So, you're pretty happy at Filament, but also looking for more opportunity and challenge and growth. What was it about Drydock that first interested you, and then convinced you to take the role?
⛵ It actually goes back to what I do with IGDA foundation. I'm passionate about DEI. I love developing and implementing programs that help marginalized developers.
Filament was trying. But the way that bureaucracy works, and you all know this, but if you work at a bigger studio, is that sometimes because of your role or the way the company is structured, you're limited in the ways that you can impact the studio. And that's totally fine hierarchy. In some ways, it benefits when people having clear lines of power, to make sure everyone understands their roles. That can create a safer environment. But I wanted to have a more tangible impact.
And I felt like my work through the foundation had prepared me for that. I really love to Drydock's dedication to building games for people who don't necessarily identify or see themselves as gamers. And I thought this would be a great opportunity to join a studio who values that and make an impact.
One of the things that I would love to do one day is build an internship program. It's been one of my bucket list items for a very long time. That's more likely to happen at a studio where I have that kind of ability versus a more structured studio with established studio hierarchy and processes. Drydock is a new studio and there are lots of opportunities. I saw that and I wanted to be involved.
I remember, in my second job ever, I was like, "We should have an internship program." I remember everyone looking at me and being like, "You started a month ago." And they were right. I mean, it was ridiculous. But it's been one of my goals and it'll eventually happen. I definitely felt like I could make a bigger impact at a smaller studio, for sure.
😃 How lucky is that intern going to be when they are able to work with you on your team?!
🤔 I am curious about your response rate. How many other studios did you apply to and interview with?
⛵ Okay. Let's preface this by saying it is not the typical experience. I applied to maybe 10 places. I heard back from and had interviews with four or five. I received two offers.
😲 Nice!
⛵ Yeah. That's not normal. I think part of the reason why I was successful is because of Jean's work. But also because I have the privilege to be very deliberate about what studios I apply to. I do extensive research about who works there, their values, what kinds of projects they make.
I try to chat with people about their production styles because I want to make sure that I'm a good fit for them and that I would be able to grow there. I had been frustrated because there were a lot of places I would love to work for, but I knew it wasn't realistic for me to get hired there at that time.
So I focused on what I felt were the best matches for me. And that paid off because, clearly, they had agreed with me. My job experience made it a little easier for me also. If you are currently employed, it is usually easier to get a job than when you're unemployed.
Also, there's different hiring seasons in the game industry too. So kind of timing your search with that can also help a little.
😃 Definitely easier to get hired when you have a job. You're also in a greater position of leverage when your current company has already +1'd you.
The 10 applications to 4/5 interviews to 2 offers is a great result. At the same time, we're all here listening to this conversation and wondering, "Why not 10 out of 10?" Even somebody that is obviously as great and talented as Sarah only had a 20% success rate.
⛵ Right?!
😃 There are studios that passed up on Sarah! It's surprising to hear it, but there are a lot of good reasons to pass on really talented people. For example, as you've mentioned, fit, supporting goals, and that person's perceived happiness and success in that role.
We have a lot of people here that have applied a lot and can get discouraged the lack of success in those applications. But it could be for very good reasons that don't necessarily reflect upon your quality or your value.
⛵ Right? Yeah. Your job application experience does not indicate your value as a developer or a person. There are so many factors at play. There's a lot of luck. A lot of good timing. And there are always ways that we could improve as well.
Like, right now, very few people are hiring around the holidays. Show up in March for the big hiring push.
🤔 What are the ways do you think that people can stay engaged and active within the community in our current climate?
⛵ Discord is definitely my primary mode. I've joined a lot of different communities during COVID. I have my little art friend Discord. I'm not an artist, but they let me stay there. I hang out with them a lot. There's also Work With Indies, which is a really great community.
There's different IGDA chapters. And special interest groups that are not IGDA affiliated. There's an Underrepresented Genders in Game Production group. There's all these communities that you can join. I like to find ones that are pretty small and join calls. And I like to co-work with people. That's how I kind of get through my day.
Maybe I'm not as productive as I would be, but we're in the middle of a pandemic. Who's at a hundred percent productivity? If you are, oh my gosh, teach me your ways. But spending some time with people, as much as you feel comfortable is, really helpful.
🤔 Are you jumping in Discord and into a video chat?
⛵ Yeah. Sometimes we do video. I live in an apartment complex with a lot of graduate students. We are all competing for bandwidth while they're in their classes. I'll sit in a Discord call like we're doing now and I'll work on stuff and I'll chat with people and it really helps my morale.
I'm a social butterfly and COVID has been really hard. So I try to join these communities. I also try and find virtual events when I can. There are a lot of free ones now, which is awesome. One I recommend to everyone in this community is Pixel Pop. They're a Midwest US conference that focuses cool indie stuff and talks by marginalized devs. They're awesome and supportive.
Another thing is just talking to your coworkers more. You don't need to be best friends with people. Ask what kind of coffee they are drinking and connecting over it. That's really helpful.
And then if you have friends, I believe snail mail can be lovely. Receiving messages from people you care about is amazing. But that's only if you have the bandwidth and have enough stamps.
☕ I love that. I miss working from coffee.
⛵ That's the thing. I work remotely with Drydock. I chose this life because we're a hundred percent remote, but more than anything, I just want to sit in the coffee shop and get like a massive mocha and just chill there for hours.
🎧 Yeah, exactly. That is my, that is my crazy productive space. I go sit in a coffee shop for six hours. Throw the headphones on. And get like two weeks of work done.
⛵ Yeah. And then you take part of Friday off. That's what I like to do. Or I play the game. That's another thing. The producer, at some point it has to play games.
🤔 I'm an undergraduate student in math who's had a longtime passion for indie games and has a few years of programming and testing experience in internships. Any advice for us students? Stuff we should prepare for before graduation?
⛵ This is another near and dear to my heart thing. I don't think most schools prepare us for getting out there and applying and getting jobs. For reference, I went to Emerson college, which is a film and communication school that, at the time, didn't have a lot of game development support.
We had one or two classes related to game dev. One was very difficult to get into and no computer science. We didn't have a club until my junior year because I started it. It was really tough. Emerson, lovely as they are, did not do a single thing.
So here's what I would recommend doing. First thing is I would see if you have a lead, any alumni from your school, who are in games and connect with them. Just be like, "Hey, would you be willing to do a virtual, like 20 minute coffee chat?" It'll probably go longer than 20 minutes, but the 20 minutes lures them in because it feels very short. Connect with them, see what they're doing.
Don't try to connect with them with the intent of getting a job. Just honestly be like, "Hey, I'm trying to connect with alumni who came out of my school who are working in games. I'm really interested to learn how you got your job right." And connecting with them on that and likely they'll they'll want to help you.
But, don't expect it. A lot of them are very, very busy. I would suggest start attending meetups if you can. I'm exhausted at the end of the day. So it's hard for me, but I try and go to a meetup at least every other week. Just meeting people in the industry and chatting with them and getting to know them.
Other things is really take a good look at your resume. And here's my 2 cents. I don't think you need to put your GPA on there. I mean, like, I am impressed when people have really great GPA's, but I don't think it tells me how good of a game dev you are. I want to know more about your experience and the projects you work on because that's what makes you good at a game job.
It's like, the things you do. I would look through your resume and highlight things that you've done, like achievements. So use action verbs. Talk about your accomplishments or things you've worked on. Highlight collaborative projects you've worked on.
If you haven't, now's a great time to start. Do some game jams. They don't have to be the high pressure over the weekend thing. I can't do that. There are lots of really chill ones that take place over a week. And they'll match you with participants. They're really safe communities.
Also, if you feel comfortable reaching out to other devs at studios you might like to work at. Just ask them, "How did you get into games? How did you find this role? What were you looking for?" Just connecting with them will help because even if these relationships don't pay off, now they'll pay off in the long-term.
And in the meantime, there are lots of resources for students and students who are graduating right.
Just to name a couple of off in voice chat and there's Mass Digi. Mass Digi is an organization that is attached to Becker college in Massachusetts. They have programs that they run throughout the year.
There's the Summer Innovation Program, which I went through back in 2016. That is for students or students who've recently graduated to make games together in a studio environment and receive mentorship from industry vets.
The IGDA foundation also has a lot of programs. Not to pitch us, but I'll pitch us. We have three programs to help people in games. We've got Next Gen Leaders, which helps folks who are in mid-level career stay in games. These are all for marginalized developers. There's Velocity who are dedicated to helping people get their first job in games, transition into games. Then there is Scholars, which is specifically geared towards students.
😃 Sarah, you were awesome. I'm so glad that we've gotten the opportunity to get to know you.
I'm so glad that the indie games community gets to benefit from you and your efforts. You're making us a better place, a better industry, and making all of us better people just by being able to hang out with us and rubbing off on us. So thank you.
⛵ Thank you so much. Well, thank you for putting this together. I would not have my job without you. I love that you're putting this community together. I mean, AAA is great. Maybe I'll work there one day, but I love my indie community more than anything. And I'm so happy that we have an opportunity to actually chat with one another.
I feel like when I was really getting into games, I didn't know where to go and who to talk to. And so I just kind of stumbled around, being awkward. And now there's a dedicated space for it and it's safe and we can ask questions and get to know each other. And I'm so happy and thankful for that.
One of my favorite things you talk about is retention. I mean, we're trying to bring people into games and once they get there, we're trying to retain people in games. And there's a lot of things about the industry is working against us.
😡 Or, in AAA that is constantly laying people off, making it hard to grow and develop your career. Your team, your manager, your entire coaching and leadership chain being disrupted all the time.
⛵ Not to mention that, compounding all that with the fact that games don't usually pay as well.
"Well, it's games, so you're having fun. Give us this massive discount." And we do. I have a friend who works in tech and she makes three times as much as I do.
But it's okay. We have more fun, right?
😃 And if we believe indie games is a more inclusive space, how about making it a little easier to find a job? That is what I do now every day and it is incredibly difficult.
What are you supposed to do? Go to a thousand different developer websites every day looking for job openings? That might only appear a couple of times a year? For hopefully a job that matches your skill set?
I have a theory that we're losing out on a ton of talent that would be interested in indie games, but end up in AAA and elsewhere because it is so much easier to find jobs there.
So, we're trying to fix that. Because if we're losing that talent, then we're not playing the incredible games that they would have created. And I really want to play their games.
⛵ For sure! I appreciate you doing this. It reminds me of a friend of mine who is really into Neopets. This year, they were looking for a community manager and she missed it because she wasn't looking every single day. So I love that you've created this space where now I don't have to worry about it as much. I love checking all the jobs out there.
I mean, I love Drydock and I don't want to leave. But I do love seeing what companies are out there because I learned about so many new studios this way.
😃 That has been super cool side benefit. People actually discovering new studios and games through the website.
It's funny that you mention looking at and learning from other job posts. The Beauty Cult posted a job and I reached out to high-five them for being open and supportive of junior employees and marginalized developers. They said they almost copied the text verbatim from that same Clever Endeavor job post, because it was perfect and they couldn't figure out a way to improve it. And I hear stuff like that all the time.
That was actually part of my original thesis and hope for the job board. That by centralizing all of the job opportunities, we'd create awareness for hiring standards and best practices. We're not just helping people find and fill jobs. Our goal is to make indie games a better place to work.
And I say all of this because you guys are the cream of the crop. I've really enjoyed being able to highlight Studio Drydock on the site, on socials, in these events and everything. You're the very cool aspirational example that the rest of our studios can follow.
⛵ Thank you. We're really trying. We have these conversations every week where we ask, "What are we doing? What can we do better?" And I love that. I think we should all be doing that.
😃 I love the work you are doing at Studio Drydock, but if I was at a company with a job opening, I would hire you on the spot. You are fantastic. You are absolutely a leader and a future leader of the video game space. You give me so much hope for what we can become. Thank you.
⛵ It means a lot. I feel like 2015 Sarah would be crying cause she was so sad. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I want it to be novelist. Then I decided to try games. And I fought really hard to try and get a job and it took so long. So thank you so much.
That's so meaningful and very validating. And I want everyone to experience this one day. I want everyone to be able to grow into what they want to be.
🤔 For both of you, do you have any advice on how to approach somebody for someone that is not the social butterfly? Someone who isn't as comfortable reaching out to people?
⛵ So there's a couple of things. The first thing is find someone who is a social butterfly and piggyback the crap out of them. That's what my best friend and I do. She's super introverted and I adore her. And when we go to events, I'm the one that's like, "Hello, I'm here! And this is my really awesome, talented, amazing friend!"
Now we don't all have that person. And this can be hard if you don't. I used to be extremely introverted and then I went to a school where I was forced to not be, and it was very painful. But one thing that helped was putting myself in small groups of people that were very low stakes.
Like, where no one's hiring anyone. No one's offering or selling anything. You all just love games and talking about a games together. That is my default GDC strategy. I'll be like, "Hey, where are you going to eat? Oh my gosh, did you play that game over there? It was really good and scary."
Having lots of low stakes conversations can help you build confidence, or at least the tolerance of people, that you may need. It's not a perfect system, but it's how I work. Like I said, I was a social butterfly, but when I go to GDC, I shut down. Cause, oh my gosh, so many people.
That's where I'll employ the "Did you have a chance to play this game" strategy. At the end of the day, people just want friends, right?
I don't know, Nathan, if you have better advice because you've built this community. I talk to people for a living.
😃 So it's a little different for me. The community has taken off and I had no idea what I was doing.
I'll echo the social butterfly strategy. To add one or more to your circle. I like to talk. But I also go through times where I'm drained. I'm an introvert and an extrovert. There's times where I just want to hang out and be around people. I may not want to contribute. I may not want to have to be "on". And, I like for my contributions to add value.
I want to be witty or share information or empathize. And that comes best for me when I am listening and responding when I can add value and otherwise being comfortable with being quiet. So finding somebody that enjoys talking a lot and will naturally fill the space for you. They help to remove the awkward silences or pauses in your conversations.
That's a good ally to have as a copilot.
The other thing that I did, and this was a breakthrough for me in my teenage years and helped me come out of my shell, I would find people that looked as unhappy and lonely as I was.
I started to approach other people that looked unhappy and lonely because I knew how they felt. I knew I was hurting and it hurt me to see them hurting.
Most of those people, more often than not, they wanted somebody to chat with. So I decided I was going to be that person. But I also knew that sometimes they wanted space. So, I would just walk up to those people and I would start a conversation.
I would literally say, "Hi, I'm Nate. How's it going? What's your name?" and go from there.
I would then leave very quickly if they looked annoyed or bothered.
But 80% of the time, they were very open to having a conversation. I've made some of my best friends today through those conversations. Me walking up to random person trying to shine some light on their day, trying to be a gift for them in that moment.
And then really hitting it off with that person.
I don't know how to do that online. I thrive in person. I'm still figuring out how to do this in an online only environment.
⛵ Awesome answers. I especially relate to piggybacking because I used to have a friend who took me everywhere. I would go along begrudgingly, but then I'd meet cool people along the way.
Nathan, that must have been a turning point in your life. Almost like a switch where you start to help people in a way that also helps you. I don't think I can do that.
😃 Right. Because I've found and saw that I was valuable. I found value in bringing some light and brightness into other people's days and lives. And that made me feel better about myself. That I could make a difference. It gave me a boost of confidence. That breakthrough was really formidable in unlocking the person I am.
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